Lerman Fuels Jewish Blood Libel in Comment Thread

The Guardian’s favorite Theobald Jew, Antony Lerman, was at it again fuelling the flames of Jew-hatred in the comment thread with an article entitled Israel’s doctors must allay doctor’s fears bearing the byline “[a]llegations of Israeli doctors colluding in the torture of Palestinians must be investigated”. There being no substance to Lerman’s article, the commenters seized upon this to focus on the news that during the 1990s Israel used organs from deceased Israelis, Palestinians and foreign workers without their consent.

The first volley of comments in the thread set the tone for the entire thread:

orwellwasright

22 Dec 2009, 12:10PM
This on top of the admission by the Israeli government that they were indeed harvesting the organs of Palestinians – after accusing anyone who saw any credibility to the allegations revealed in the Swedish press of being “anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists”.
Talk about a complete, institutionalised rejection of morality…

ellymiranda

22 Dec 2009, 12:11PM
Yes, now when Israel officially admitted that their physicians have stolen organs from both Israelis and Palestinians, it is time to put it all on the table.

Of course, this kind of perversion of the truth is a well known tactic employed by the hate-Israel crowd. Predictably, orwellwasright and ellymiranda manipulated the false headline that “Israel Admitted to Harvesting Palestinian Organs” using this as proof that the Aftonbladet blood libel (that Israeli soldiers harvest the organs of Palestinians for trafficking) is true, despite the fact that such charges are completely unsubstantiated and Donald Bostrom, the Aftonbladet “reporter”, has since distanced himself from the story.

As Yaacov Lozowick observes

Antisemitic allegations almost always start from some grain of fact. What makes them antisemitic (or even merely slander) isn’t the original grain of truth but the edifice built on it. In the Rostom blood libel earlier this year the slander was that IDF forces were regularly killing Palestinians so as to harvest their organs. The grain of truth uncovered here (which actually isn’t news at all, it has been known in Israel for years, which is one reason Hiss no longer heads the Abu Kabir institute) has nothing to do with those allegations, and doesn’t substantiate them in any way.

But to point out that what orwellwasright and ellymiranda were doing was propagating antisemitic blood libels was met with this:

orwellwasright

22 Dec 2009, 12:21PM
I wonder how long it’ll be until the usual suspects come here and start making excuses for this? They do it for the slaughter of children, so why not for the complicity of the medical establishment in torture or the harvesting of organs?

orwellwasright

22 Dec 2009, 12:25PM
ThePrompter: “What I’d like to know is, as far as Israelis are concerned, what isn’t antisemitic?”
Praising the IDF for shooting children, perhaps?

bill4me

22 Dec 2009, 12:30PM
Or praising Hamas for raining rockets down on civilian populations?

KrustytheKlown

22 Dec 2009, 2:48PM

Rubbish! The whole point about the article to which you refer was that it claimed that Palestinians were being killed in order to obtain their organs without a shred of evidence being offered to support the claim.

Did the article make this claim?
From what I’ve read (admittedly I haven’t read a translation of hte original article) the newspaper did not make this claim, but rather reported the remarks of individual Palestinians who did make this claim. Not at all the same thing.
It is, btw, really quite chilling to see how so many of our zionist posters are playing down Israel’s admission that it stole organs from members of an occupied people. If that kind of carry-on really isn’t so bad after all, why then did the Israeli govt throw out the usual pathetic ‘anti-semite’ accusation at Aftonbladet, and demand an official condmemnation from the Swedish governemnt?

maskdmaverick

22 Dec 2009, 3:58PM

This story just shows how Israel has been willing to label any criticism as anti-semitic. Great to see them fall flat on their face.

orwellwasright

22 Dec 2009, 4:55PM

deWinter: who on earth is talking about Israeli hospitals and the standard of care?? The topic is specific allegations of doctors assisting in torture.
It would be a good idea of those on CIF who go around making sweeping statements bothered to read both the article and the subsequent comments properly before spouting out irrelevant posts.

MeandYou

22 Dec 2009, 5:31PM

According to the Huffington Post Israel do more than torture:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/21/israel-admits-harvesting_n_399623.html

“(AP) JERUSALEM – Israel has admitted that in the 1990s, its forensic pathologists harvested organs from dead bodies, including Palestinians, without permission of their families.”

The only thing that seems illegal in this War Machine state is any criticism of it.

MeandYou

22 Dec 2009, 5:43PM

I should know when it comes to Israel, facts are meaningless.

And then we have Jay’Reilly who described Jews who challenge this kind of discourse as the “absolute dregs of the Jewish diaspora”. Do you think he will get banned for making such a blatantly antisemitic comment? (Its a rhetorical question – this is CiF, the incubator for this kind of discourse.)

JayReilly

22 Dec 2009, 12:50PM
“This on top of the admission by the Israeli government that they were indeed harvesting the organs of Palestinians – after accusing anyone who saw any credibility to the allegations revealed in the Swedish press of being “anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists”. “
Its amazing how a country that goes in for such regular depravity is seemingly untouchable on the world stage. We are desperately rewriting our laws to protect their war criminals, the global talks on racism were walked out on by most of the West because Israel’s fine name had been sullied, they threatened Sweden for not backing their grotesque cover up, the UK was silent over their assaults in Lebanon, and to cap it all off the absolute dregs of the Jewish diaspora relentlessly scream about anti-semitism when these things are raised.

And for a further insight into the depraved mind of JayReilly we have this.

JayReilly

22 Dec 2009, 2:14PM
“And by jove, he’s irrationally angry: “
Irrational? How so? A country that operates apparently on a different moral and legal basis to the rest of the world with the overt support of my government, my objection to its practices are “irrational”. Please explain.
“The ‘regular depravity’ which, because of the complex ethical, moral, legal, problems involved, has engulfed 200 hospitals here. In regularly depraved UK?”
The UK is about as depraved as any developed demoracy, yes. Maybe if we were illegally occupying Wales and taking organs from the Welsh who we regularly pounded to dust with illegal munitions, maybe then I’d find it even worse than depraved and actually become “irrationally angry” about it. Funny thing context, isnt it, its almost like it actually matters.
“Now on to Livni and a magistrate’s warrant which can be issued without evidence by politically motivated activists but has not and will not be issued to Messrs Blair, Clinton, Putin, Mugabe, Assad.”
Aside from the crass wotaboutery at the end, are you saying magistrate’s are “political activists”? The warrant must be issued by a court, not the activists.
“Were anti-semitic literature was sold in the foyers?”
I was under the impression one of the principle complaints was the description of Israel as a “racist state”, something that appears factually irrefutable.
“In there with a chance: Israel ‘threatened’ Sweden? Did they? What was the threat? And what is the cover up?”
Forgive me, Israel voiced its displeasure and politely requested the Swedish government take steps against the paper. Apologies for the error.
“An unsubstantiated accusation” – which it has now been found was pretty close to the truth.
Try and refute or explain, it’s screaming and our Jay describes someone like me as part of ‘the absolute dregs of the Jewish diaspora’.”
I said in very plain English that those who respond to all criticism with cries of “anti-semitism” are the “dregs of the diaspora”, yes. Whats the problem, and what have you got to do with it? I didnt realise you were one of the “anti-semitic!!!!!!” crowd.

Anyway lets see what other characters are attracted to a thread like this.
Well in time honored CiF fashion, we have the Jewish conspiracy theorists:

doask

22 Dec 2009, 12:56PM

curiously israeli organ harvesting has not yet reached bbc broadcast news .. in fact nor has the continued collective punishment of gazans nor the threat by admiral mullin to iran of military action in 2010.
is the bbc reporting anything other than weather these days?

Rgk78

22 Dec 2009, 1:02PM
curiously israeli organ harvesting has not yet reached bbc broadcast news .. in fact nor has the continued collective punishment of gazans nor the threat by admiral mullin to iran of military action in 2010.
is the bbc reporting anything other than weather these days?
why has govt been silent of the israeli abuses?
My view point is that the pro-Israel Murdoch media report items in a way that is 95% bias towards Israel.
The UK government policy is about 90% pro-Israel.
The BBC is about 75% pro-Israel and this is low enough to be accused of anti-semetism.

And then there’s those that make Nazi analogies:

Rgk78

22 Dec 2009, 12:42PM
I don’t know if doctors in Israel take the Hippocratic Oath but you have to question your morals if you have any part in this. A doctor should not ever participate in anything like this.
Being complicit with the government echoes regimes that I dare not mention at the risk of being shouted down.

ThePrompter

22 Dec 2009, 1:08PM
There were people in Germany who’s indiscriminate support for the Nazi regime to a large extent allowed that regime to commit the atrocities that it did.
The un-discriminating appologists for the Israeli state are in danger of making the same mistake.
I am not saying that Israeli behavior is comparable to the behavior of Nazi Germany, but to contend that Israel doesn’t have questions to answer is just ridiculous

FrankFinlay

22 Dec 2009, 1:23PM

So are Israeli doctor’s complicit in torture or not?

The world needs an answer. My God, I hope they aren’t. If they are then the moral compass of the world has truly been inverted. Which would mean that Israel could no longer claim a special moral position because of the terrible history of the Jewish people. History does not excuse evil.

phindrup

22 Dec 2009, 3:22PM

What I’d like to know is, as far as Israelis are concerned, what isn’t antisemitic?
Odd isn?t it? Though some Jews are also Semites, many, especially the European Jews are not, and never have been.
Palestinians however, are definitely Semites, there is absolutely no doubt about this.
Isn?t it time that the charge of against anybody questioning the behaviour of Israel was described correctly? Whatever a person supporting the Palestinian cause might be, they are not anti-Semitic.
Why is Israel ?singled out? for criticism?
The fact that in 1947 Jews owned less than seven percent of the land in Palestine.
Today, Israel occupies 87 percent of Palestine. It controls the airspace, the land and sea borders and all food, water, fuel, electricity, medical supplies and access to medical aid, building materials, spare parts, etc.

?Gaza is an immense concentration camp — 1.5 million people squeezed into 140 square miles hemmed in on all sides by 25-foot-high walls separated by a vast expanse of bulldozed earth. The 2005 “pull-out” left Gaza still controlled by Israel from air and sea, its entries and exits prisonlike mazes electronically controlled and under constant surveillance. Bombing it, assaulting it with tanks and Uzis, is like shooting animals in a pen.?

“Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial.” Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001

29numbers

22 Dec 2009, 4:09PM
They consider them a lesser specie but still use their organs. Hypocrites.

And then we have a commenter that uses the “chosen people” trope.

need4enlightenment

22 Dec 2009, 4:22PM
Man, I heard about the harvesting of organs…. sick bastards. By the way I am NOT calling ALL Israelis sick bastards, only those that cut numerous organs from a dying persons body, sow them back up and dump them in the street… Oh or dump phosphate on people from a great height…. oh, or blockade ports knowing full well the people will starve… yeh, if you do none of that you are a nice person, perhaps even gods-chosen…

And then there are those that think they’re history experts because they’ve read some Pappe or Shlaim:

ThePrompter

22 Dec 2009, 5:21PM
SantaMonika –
“Oh, the endless attempts here to rewrite history by the biased and ignorant” etc.
1947-49
There were indeed 7 Arab armies, however they were outnumbered by the Zionist forces. They never invaded the land that the Zionists had been given, all of the battles took place on the land that was to be the Palestinian state, and they only attacked the Zionists after the Zionists had committed a number of massacres including Deir Yassin where 100 Palestinian men, women, and children were killed, on Palestinian land. By the end of the war Israel had control of all of Palestine except The West Bank and Gaza, 750,000 Palestinians had become refugees, and over 500 Palestinian towns and villages had been obliterated. It was, and still is, the Israeli Zionists who are the aggressors.

It’s all pretty well documented you know……
ONeill70 4.33pm –
You are making the same mistake as SantaMonika, I do happen to know quite a lot about Nazi Germany and the Israeli/Palestine conflict, based on a lot more than CiF or Israeli propaganda sites.
However I suggest we drop this subject because it’s getting seriously off-topic.

ThePrompter

22 Dec 2009, 3:48PM
TawdryDog –
“This forum is not appreciative when others point out the absence of criticism of ‘freedom fighters’ and their masters in Tehran”
My comment was clearly aimed at the Israeli state and it’s un-critical supporters, but even if it wasn’t clear enough for you, you should have realised what I meant because the Palestinian ‘freedom fighters’ don’t have a state, Israel nicked it 61 years ago.

And the historical distortions continue with this:

MmeEAB

22 Dec 2009, 3:43PM
Why is anybody surprised at anything horrible which is done by israelis to the original inhabitants of the land these northern european refugees occupy?

And to top if off, perhaps one of the only comments which was on-topic – in that it addressed the subject of torture raised by Antony Lerman – gets deleted. Read this comment – I can only surmise that Tom Wonacott expressed a view that did not fit in with the Guardian World Veiw. Bad boy Tom! You should know better by now.

TomWonacott

22 Dec 2009, 1:43PM

“……..Even though Israel’s supreme court in 1999 finally ruled that methods of torture used at that time by the security forces were illegal, a loophole was left for interrogators who tortured in “ticking bomb” situations, which ultimately allowed old forms of torture to creep back in by the mid-2000s, as a 2007 report by PCATI showed. So there is good reason to be seriously concerned about the use of torture today……..”
The ticking time bomb scenario is one of the most controversial “loopholes” used to condone the practice of torture. In a November 3, 2005 New York Times editorial, ?The Prison Puzzle?, the New York Times stated:
“We’re not naïve enough to believe that if the C.I.A. nabs a Qaeda operative who knows where a ticking bombs hidden, that terrorist will emerge unbruised from his interrogation…”
Thus, even the New York Times believes that under certain circumstances, torture is warranted. What leader would give in to principal when faced with the loss of a significant amount of innocent lives? For me personally, its not so much the use of torture, but when to apply the ticking time bomb scenario – and what criteria makes torture the preferred technique to gather important, life saving information.
I read the account of one suspect (Bajat Yamen) who was clearly tortured in 2004. This was done toward the end of the second intifada when more than 1100 Israelis lost their lives from suicide bombings and other attacks that targeted Israeli civilians for murder. In 2004-2005, nearly 100 Israelis lost their lives from suicide bombings alone.
Identifying Palestinian suicide bombers is difficult at best because they blend in with the population (and many look a lot like the Israeli Arabs that reside in Israel). While the use of torture is illegal, no one can blame Israel for torturing high value targets to protect their citizens during a war (at least in my opinion) -especially from those who target civilians for murder which is (just as) illegal under the Geneva Convention. Protecting Israel citizens is the number one priority of the Israel government.

Oh well. Another day in the parallel universe of the Guardian.

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