An Eastern Western

Remember this?
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWet2qgieVc]

I’m often reminded of those old Westerns when reading the comments on CiF. Back in those days the cowboys were always good and right, the Indians always mad, bad and wrong and with the very first opening bars of the theme music, we always knew that justice would eventually prevail. And so it is even today on CiF; some of the below the line commentators (and indeed, above the line writers) are seemingly still living in those gloriously anachronistic times when the world was perceived as being an easy place to understand.
Take the recent Jonathan Freedland thread for example; a rather woolly analysis in my view, but nevertheless, the comments were true to form. Some ‘Mystic Megs’ with apparent mind reading powers were able to inform us as to the inner thoughts of members of the Israeli government.

EnglishroG
10 Feb 2010, 8:49AM
The Palestinians shouldn’t do anything – Netanyahu regards them as sub-human, and just wants to go through the motions of talks so he doesn’t come under any American pressure.
Thanks to proportional representation, no Israeli givernment lasts more than a few years. Wait for the inevitable scandal and incompetance to engulf Netanyahu, wait for Obama’s second term, wait for a new Israeli leader.
In the meantime, work on the non-violent protests and marches, keep stressing the arparthied theme, and grow the boycott and sanctions movement in the International community.
Oh and whatever happens, don’t listen to Quartet representative Tony Blair.

FalseConsciousness
10 Feb 2010, 9:05AM
The murderous Israeli regime has no interest in peace. The siege on Gaza is an act of war in itself. Israel’s ongoing crackdown on nonviolent protests against the occupation and the illegal apartheid wall makes it clear will do anything to maintain the status-quo as long as possible. Only a unified mass movement of the Palestinian working class can win basic rights and equality for all Palestinians within Israel and in the occupied territories. Of course, this can’t be accomplished without winning over a sizable number of ordinary Israelis. The problem is that the Palestinian leaders, be they the craven and corrupt Fatah officials or the reactionary Hamas, are just as determined as the Israelis to prevent such a mass movement from materializing because they fear they may lose control of the movement and all of their political power as well.
Then, the ‘truth and justice’ brigade; they who bask in the comfort of knowing exactly who is right, who is wrong, and what should be.

Ranong
10 Feb 2010, 9:01AM
Gullible
This is precisely the problem we have with middle-class Friends of Israel whose comfortable lives make it almost impossible for them to empathise with the victims of ethnic-cleansing and white phosphorous.
Be clear; it is not “peace” that is needed, a peace defined by the colonists and their supporters, but justice. And this is what the Israeli colonists fear most of all; that the resilience displayed by the residents of Gaza and the schoolchildren in Shuafat on Monday will eventually defeat them.
May we have the view from Gaza and Shuafat rather than Hampstead, please?

theyislying
10 Feb 2010, 1:35PM
I haven’t suggested “disputed territory” is a legal term, I did point out that the West Bank and Gaza doesn’t fall under “occupation”, and here’s the legal source: the 4th Geneva convention, Article 2
the whole of israel is disputed territory. israel is an illegal construct, it was not born out of palestinians selling their land nor is it legal in terms of UN as being a construct of ‘conquest’.
israels purpose is firstly to act as a european settler colony – that europe effectively had ethnically cleansed itself of jews (this was always the motivation behind balfour et al) and to act as a destabilising divide and rule proxy.
israel netanyahu claims is a jewish state, yet thus far i cannot believe that what israel encourages itself in its actions can be remotely representative of judaisms morality ot ethics.
theyislying
10 Feb 2010, 1:50PM
I’m fascinated. Do please explain how Abbas could force the Israeli government to negotiate faster and force them to implement any agreement reached.
abbas does not have any mandate, his position has ended.
israel will not be an honest player in negotiating a peace, this must be clear from the last 60 years.
we in turn have aided and abetted the pain and subjugation of the palestinian people , although cameron states that he will put an end to ‘lobby’ groups i doubt that he would dare to put an end to the ‘friends of israel’ considering that 80% of his party subscribe to that lobby org. and of course blair and brown both have claimed their allegiance to israel above and beyond any justice or dignity on behalf of the palestinians.
theyislying
10 Feb 2010, 1:56PM
if israel is such a great nation with a great people, and it has such a great intellectual capacity one does wonder why it has failed to implement a just peace settlement. it could do so unilaterally, and one should it be fair and just would be viewed by the rest of the world as such would surely commend israel for its actions.
instead israel places a siege on palestinians, removes people from their homes, steals land and still seeks to create more destruction and resentment through more acts of aggression. as if the dispossession of 1948 by european settlers wasnt enough of a crime in itself.
and yet it would as would its backers say that it does no wrong , ever.
when israelis begin to realise they are also arabs then maybe the connection to humanity might be made until then there is no peace settlement to be had. zionist ideology does not allow it.
theyislying
10 Feb 2010, 2:28PM
This is a new one “Israel is a European settler colony”
You have no other choice but to laugh at idiotic comments like this one
No it isn’t,most of the Jews that returned to their homeland Israel were Jews that were mercilessly kicked out of the Arab states that they were living in.
They were ethnically cleansed from these Arab states that they lived in for thousands of years.They were forced to leave all their belongings,their houses,their buisnesses they were forced to leave with only their clothes on their backs.That was the real and only ethnic cleansning that happened in the ME.
you need to recall european history and the stated motivations by the british in the early 20th century in creating israel which only became possible in the middle of that century.
zionism is largely a european/american ideology practised mainly by christians as it happens. it has been zionist ideology that has led israel not jewish faith or principles.
one should remind oneself that it was in europe that 6 million jews were murdered, in what is called the holocaust. it was not a crime committed by muslims but by europeans and christians.
in palestine jews, chrsitian and muslims lived side by side in relative harmony, it was the influx of european zionists who had waged a terrorist campaign that created the destabilisation and environment that we view today.
in fact historically in spain it was muslims who provided protection to jews and their faith, it was the european christian hordes that persecuted muslims and jews that ‘cleansed spain’, again it was a european holocaust.
israel is about zionism it would be a another issue if it was about judaism .

For some, the only sort of ‘justice’which will suffice is a dismantling of the Israeli state.

Matzpen
10 Feb 2010, 11:37AM
Just to clafiy my position. I said above that:
the two-state solution is utopian, is idealism.
What I mean to say is the idea of a two-state solution negotiated between the parties as they are now, a Zionist Israel and a dispossessed and powerless Palestine, is utopian.
A genuinely negotiated settlement and a two-state solution would be possible between equal parties accepting one another’s equal rights.
Although, of course, if there was such a negotiation between such parties, there would be no need for two seperate states and the whole argument would be superseded by a changed reality.

Neil1984
10 Feb 2010, 11:39AM
The only basis for Palestinian-Israeli peace negotiations is is a democratic, secular bi-national state. The two state solution is dead. Successive Israeli governments, whether Labour or Likud, along with their neocon sponsors in the US, made sure of that.
If Abbas makes the mistake of re-entering the two-decades long peace “process” for two-states, Israel will make sure that he, like Arafat, is scapegoated for their failure.

Indigenous1
10 Feb 2010, 12:33PM
Matzpen
I do agree. Reality is pressing towards one state – apartheid will fail.

sugarrush
10 Feb 2010, 4:25PM
The two state solution is dead. By continually building setllements Israel has not left the Palestinians enough land to build a viable state. And if there was enough land the Israeli’s would insist on total control over the state turning it into merely a handful of bantustans., which wouyld be unacceptable to the
Palestinian people.
The only solution left is that Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza be given full Israeli citizenship with voting rights. The Palestinian refugees must be allowed back and be given the same rights
Palestininas must give theirir arms and forget about their own homeland.
In the new state both sides will have to work towards making a better society for all. learn to live and work together.
If the South Africans can do it so can the Israeli’s and the Palestininas/

And of course no CiF thread would be complete without some apartheid and Nazi analogy:

seely
10 Feb 2010, 4:07PM
I think Israel will end up like South Africa, an apartheid regime that thumbed its nose at the world, but forced eventually to loosen its grip over the land and its people.
Finally, the Bantustans did not/could not stand.

Mind you, the apartheid regime in S A was rock solid, established in the age of imperialism, and defeated nevertheless.

Ranong
10 Feb 2010, 11:21AM
Exiled
May I suggest that it’s the Blair & Bibi “solution” of a few bantustans ruled by chieftains (Dahlan?) to supply cheap labour to the colonies?
The untermenschen can be kept content by providing them with a Macdonalds in every ghetto.

Many of us who have years of knowledge and experience of the Middle East find this method of categorising such a complex political situation in trite, puerile terms of right and wrong, good and bad, very frustrating. Undoubtedly, those who adopt these simplistic views must find great comfort in them, but let’s face it – just like those old TV Westerns, they have no connection to the reality of life in the Middle East today. Attempts to inject a more nuanced, realistic and mature view of the conflict on a Cif thread are, of course, not welcome, as this poster found out when s/he was deleted…twice!

Fentonchem
10 Feb 2010, 2:27PM
It is often claimed in the I/P threads that the Moderators are impartial. They are not, and allow anti-Semitic comments aimed at a Democratic state and its politicians. This level of racism is not allowed to be applied to any other ethnic group.
?EnglishroG
The Palestinians shouldn’t do anything – Netanyahu regards them as sub-human?
?seely
I just don’t see Israel willingly give up all the land they’ve misappropriated?
?Ranong
Be clear; it is not “peace” that is needed, a peace defined by the colonists and their supporters?
?FalseConsciousness
The murderous Israeli regime has no interest in peace. The siege on Gaza is an act of war in itself?
?bass46
Netanyahu is a racist who has wanted a greater Israel at the expense of the Palestinians since the 70’s at least, and will justify anything in pursuit of this goal?
?Matzpen
The struggle for equal rights is a struggle to positively supercede Zionism and the idea of the Jewish state; it is a struggle to positively supercede Palestinian nationalism and the idea of Palestine, one and Arab from the river to the sea?
?RR17
Netanyahu is Ahmadinejad through the looking glass. He has advocated driving all Palestinians from their homeland and described Arabs as ‘uncivilised’. He is a racist demagogue schooled in the United States?

Fentonchem
10 Feb 2010, 4:10PM
“Papalagi
Fentonchem
Which of the assertions that you quote you think that are wrong, and why do you think that they are wrong?”
One cannot answer these questions on CiF as the answers are removed and a banning follows.

One is allowed to call a Jew in the Middle East as racist, a colonist, an occupier and a war criminal, but not allowed respond.

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