I am sure that some of you were amused that in the David Cesarani piece rebutting Oborne’s peddling of Jewish conspiracy theory that Cesarani highlights some of the antisemitic comments that were posted on the Channel Four comment thread publicizing Oborne’s “investigation” into the so-called “UK Israel lobby”.
Here’s what Cesarani writes:
At 21.34 Stuart Downie posted his congratulations to the brave programme makers who showed that “the UK parliament has, like the USA senate and congress, become Israel’s occupied territory”. It showed that British MPs “buckle under pressure from people whose first loyalty is not to the UK but to the State of Israel”. So in a few lines this posting accused Jews of dual-loyalty and echoed the name ZOG – Zionist Occupied Government – that the far right in the US uses to designate Washington.
A few comments further on and Detta asked, “why does Israel have such power? Why do most of the world seem afraid of upsetting them?” Nazir, posting at 12.11, chimed in that it is “time to reclaim British policy from those working for a foreign country”.
Funny that because those comments have a strong resemblance to comments that appear on a certain site operated by the premier left-wing media publication in the UK run by a certain journalist that recently resigned from the PPC code committee. So lets see what we discover “below the line”.
First off there is this comment from General X to get us warmed up.
17 Nov 2009, 4:08PM
Guess what, I couldn’t care less about Israel, if Iran invaded them tomorrow, I couldn’t give a toss.
Yeh. Who cares if another 5 million Jews are slaughtered in a nuclear holocaust.
Then there is this idiotic comment from raymonddelauney that thinks that we along with HP and MEMRI are part of the Israel lobby.
17 Nov 2009, 4:27PMBigNowitzki
What did you think of Undercover Mosque?
From a long line of distinguished Dispatches journalism – compelling viewing.
Which doesn’t change the fact that after last night’s programme Harry’s Place and CifWatch and MEMRI can begin to be perceived for what they truly are.
I’m still perplexed why I haven’t made CiFWatch’s hate list…
Then we have the old Zionism=Racism trope mixed in with a Nazi analogy.
17 Nov 2009, 4:26PM
Israeli racialism is as evil as Nazi racialism
[recreated from Berchman’s 17 Nov 2009, 4.43PM comment]
Oh and rather than responding to that comment with “No to antisemitism on CiF”, Berchmans, the self-appointed defender of antisemitism, states “This is counterproductive and an own goal”.
Why is that counterproductive and an own goal Berchmans? Is it because Consitituent fails to adequately conceal the antisemitism behind antizionism?
And it gets even worse (if thats possible!) with this comment from chomskyite that sounds a lot like the antisemitic 9/11 conspiracy theories.
17 Nov 2009, 4:32PMBy the definition of “Terrorism” passed on a vote of 182 in agreement, versus 1 abstention (Honduras) and 2 votes against (The USA and Israel) in December 1987 at teh UNited Nations, both The USA and Israel are deemed to be Terrorist States. If that is so, then surely those MPs and others who support Israel and the War Crimes they have perpetrated are guilty of supporting terrorism as defined in the UK Anti-Terrorism Legislation.
Why then have they not all been brought to justice??
The lack of a independant and on-oath investigation of Dr Kelly and the 7th July 2005 attacks on London must be reviewed in a different light. What part did members of the Labour administration and the Conservative party have in these actions and what did they know about them BEFORE the incidents??
Then we have this comment, which speaks for itself.
17 Nov 2009, 4:44PM
The Israelis treat the Palestinians like shit and then tries to silence anyone who points this out with the charge of anti-semitism, so I will say in advance that I am anti Israel, anti Zionist, anti anyone who supports Israel, and anti all religions including the Jewish religion. But I am not anti the Jewish race just because they are Jewish.
I object to Israel having any influence at all in British politics and I believe that the fact that they pay for that influence is corruption. If British Jews are so tied to Israel that they are prepared to subvert the British political system to get the Israeli point across then I suggest that they should be charged appropriately. If it is illegal for commercial organisations to pay MPs for influence over legislation, it should be illegal for anyone to do it. The people who tried to get the BBC to gag Jeremy Bowen should be told in no uncertain terms to stick their gag where the sun doesn’t shine.
The Israeli abuse of the Palestinians cannot be justified.
We then have this comment which while not overtly antisemitic provides an interesting insight into the sheer ignorance of Guardian anti-Israel posters:
17 Nov 2009, 4:45PMThe sad fact is that British and American Jews feel they must support Israel ,though the thought of living there never crosses their mind.You have to ask is this a way of getting “forgiveness ” from God, as they survived and thrived ,while others died.
The question is, will Israel ever be able to make a future for itself,as it has grouped a huge number of people in a very small area but,there seems very little that will help them build a Nation.
Finally,if you insist Israel must exist why treat the Palestinians so badly ?.Jews claim to have been victimised for years but,does that allow them to take revenge on a group, so weak they can hardly survive even before Israel takes their land etc.Take revenge on your tormentors ,do not repeat history,in the future it may be weak Israel that has to face World fury (after USA loses some of its power and has to compromise).What is happening at the moment is hardly an “eye for an eye ” situation,unless we are talking Crusades era again ?.
A disinterested bystander must wonder what happens when religious zealots meet western exiles ,how will they find common ground to settle disputes.As long as they are threatened they will stand together against the foe but,peace will be more difficult.
And check this comment out. The antisemitism is quite astonishing.
17 Nov 2009, 5:27PM
I recall in primary school at the age of 6 being called anti-semitic by the only jewish boy in my class. I was totally unaware at that point what it meant. He called me this because I wouldn’t let him in on our game of football because none of us liked him for who he was, not what he was.
Peter Oborne’s programme last night was important not because of who was involved but because of the implications for British foreign policy and democracy itself. It could have been the nuclear industry or the coal industry lobbying for more power stations, the point being that policy should not be dictated by MP’s who have effectively been bought. David Cesarani’s article simply re-enforces the point that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic. Indeed you could be pilloried by Israelis for saying you don’t like lox or baegels.
There is a strong jewish community here in the UK and our government’s willingness to listen to them over matters like the West Bank is truly worrying. If Israel feels isolated it is only because they take the view that they are right and everyone else is wrong. It’s the ‘chosen people’ line they cling to. I can remember going out with a very attractive Jewish girl and being mortally offended when I was handed different cutley and crockery than everyone else because I was not Jewish and they wonder why people don’t like them.
Tony Blair’s role in the invasion of Iraq has become abundantly clear now he has dropped the pretense that religion was not part of his life. It was infact key to his agreement to take the UK to war because of his sympathy with the US Judao-Christion faction that is the Republican party. The person that mentioned ZOG is in a sense quite right in that it seems that the same thing has happened to both the Labour Party and now the Conservatives.
We may then say that all our MP’s are corrupt or indeed corrupted unless proven otherwise.
Vote then not for them but for someone who will treat our democracy with some sense of of honour.
Then here are some comments that play on Jewish conspiracy theory (surprise surprise).
17 Nov 2009, 5:29
What I find truly disgusting is that our elected representatives allowed themselves to be bought by a pressure group for a foreign power. I believe this group has also had a thoroughly malign influence on our internal politics and the course of our post war history. We need politicians who will not engage with traitors for cash.
17 Nov 2009, 5:30In a representative democracy, any organisation seeking to subvert that function should be surgically resected and disposed of. However, the electorate lacks the scalpel to perform surgery by choice, instead we flip-flop between different factions of the same party. Indeed, these are two factions dedicated to one thing, to sustain the upward chain and transfer of wealth from the public to private sector. As long as the “Israel Lobby” has a confluence of interest in this aim, it can continue to function and also coincidentally ensure Britain’s “support” of Israel. If however, like its supreme leader the US has shown in the past, should Israel do anything to perturb the pre-existing balance of power, the “Israel Lobby” would be rendered into a talking shop.
Today, Israel has authorised 900 further units to be built in the illegal settlement of Gilo on Occupied Palestinian Territory. I expect the response of the UK government will be a very tepid (at best) displeasure of such actions, and this moderation exists due to necessity. Otherwise, both parties risk losing critical funding. Already CNN has been pressured into calling Gilo a “neighbourhood” rather than a settlement – something discussed in the Israeli press but ignored widely here (as usual).
Its about the the survival of 2 parties, Labour and Conservative, which would would disappear if not kept resuscitated by rich donors and backing by corporate media.
18 Nov 2009, 9:43AMThey forgot to mention Mandelson’s links to Rothscgild and the oligarchs.
he situation is even more extreme in the USA.David Cesarani’s objections to the programme seem to be based on the fact that the pro-Israel lobbyists are only doing collectively what Murdock and Goldman Sachs are doing, and that it’s all perfectly legal. So that’s O.K. then.
18 Nov 2009, 11:38AMIt is really surprising to me that Israel needs a lobby here at all……………..
when they have Daveed Miliband as the British Foreign Secretary !!
He is at this moment in time, too tied up with his assualts on Muslims to make any comment about the latest word from Israel about the additional Al Quds illegal settlement they have just announced !
Perish the thought that you would ever hear a bad word spoken from his forked tongue about Israel and their 110 oustanding resolutions!
Seems as if he is in the right job but the wrong country
Then we have the most laughable (and disgustingly antisemitic) comment of the thread with this:
17 Nov 2009, 5:57PM
For one thing, BBC is controlled by the Israeli government.
Then we’re back to more Israel-bashing with this virulently antisemitic comment (undeleted I note) invoking, among other things, Nazi analogies.
18 Nov 2009, 3:22PM
This programme was long overdue and explains the terrible imbalance there has been in government attitudes to the Palestine question and the media’s uncritical support for Israel’s apartheid policies which are illegal and nazi-like in inhumanity. Israel has been getting away with illegality and murder for too long with the shameful acquience of Western governments – with the honourable exception of the Swedes. The Zionists game is being exposed for the evil that it is – hopefully it will go the same way as the racist south africa which failed to maintain itself despite its equally brutal apartheid policy. This will be no thanks to those who make the loudest claims to ‘democracy’ and ‘freedom’.
And yet despite all of the above, this is what the despicable Berchmans writes on the thread.
18 Nov 2009, 3:30SE26lad
## Many people use attacks on Israel as a cloak for being rude about Jews. ##
Who are the many people doing this??? please identify them so we may all condemn them..if not no to vague , anonymous allegations of anti Semitism on CIF ..
And then he writes this.
18 Nov 2009, 3:38PM
## The Guardian is unremitting in its hostility to Israel, ##
This is another totally unreferenced allegation of bias…I dont know know why the Guardian allows this …this could be dangerous for her reporters if Zionist loopies are being fed this tripe.
The pro Israel lobby is alive and well on CIF.
18 Nov 2009, 3:47PM
Isn’t the very fact that Israel is destined, if the Zionist regime has its way, to become a “Jewish State” (as opposed to a Semitic State) and Britain is still in effect a Christian State (until completely absorbed by the EU, against the wishes of the majority of British people it seems), our two “States” are founded on a gross incompatibility? The very reason Jesus Christ is the foundation of Christianity is because he (and, according to the Bible, God) forsook the then “Israelites” their convenant as they acted contrary to God’s Law – the Law Christians are supposedly bound by.
The heavy presence of Jews (some Zionists) in British and US (and no doubt therefore EU) politics, and the undoubted (according to Oborne et al) insidious influence of Zionism throughout Labour and Conservative politicking – not forgetting Bliar’s previous (till sacked having been “outed”) advisor who amongst others foretold of a government that may well be a “Scottish Freemason collaboration with Zionism” – does not gel within a religious context let alone a “what is best for Britons” context. The concept of a Secular Britian, US and Europe may even be driven by Zionism – after all Christianity must be anathema to fundamentalist Jews and I can think of several prolific outspoken “secularism- demanding” politicians of Jewish origin.
Britain and Brits realised, through turbulent and oft-selfish times, a parliamentary and political system founded on democracy and free speech – I support those ideals, but they are being eroded rapidly and will soon become extinct post Treaty of Lisbon. The EU does not hold with those fundamental principles. There is no reason why people of all faiths and all beliefs might reside humbly and peacfully in British shores, and political parties evolve out of all those peoples, but our system (and therefore those currently in power) must scrupuously cleanse their parties and their policies of any other than those whose intention and drive is purely Britain for the British – not US, nor Israel, nor EU, nor any other – charity begins at home. Only when we have sorted out own obvious mess in this region can we move forward to engage with others in a mature humane and honest way.
All parliamentary presence, voting and politicking must avoid non-Briton interests without fear or favour; not long since we saw 3 Conservative candidates resign at the eleventh hour to make way for a Jewish Leader – Michael Howard – under circumstances suspicious to any reasonable person. Two candidadtes enjoyed polls of around 28%, another around 15%, whilst Howard was only 5% – the three suddenly resigned and Howard became Leader. Where was democracy in the Conservative party that day? Bliar appointed a string of Jewish supremos in various roles of influence, some still there; “appointed” has no place in those roles in a British democracy. Where was democracy in Labour that day?
There are many moderates in all religions and all politics in Britain, they are the people Britons should find in favour of once again.
And what would a thread like this be without deletions of pro-Israel comments:
17 Nov 2009, 4:35PM
I don’t get it. Are you saying that the Jews control Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, David Cameron, William Hague and Boris Johnston?
That would be quite some accomplishment. Then maybe we can have them declare the United Kindom as the latest Israeli settlement.
I see, The Jews control the world. I’ll bet the do it using their MONEY. Isn’t that right raymonddelauney?
My god, they just keep coming out of the woodwork. The Guardian is alllowing straight forward anti-semetic diatribes to be openly shared and promoted in their forum.
[recreated from raymonddelauney’s 17 Nov 2009, 4.38PM comment]
17 Nov 2009, 6:02PM
said “Oh? You are above empiricism all of a sudden? Berchmans, bless his cotton socks, sometimes writes in quite an odd way, if he’ll forgive me for saying so, but he is not alone in these pages in being fed up to the back teeth with allegations of anti-Semitism being thrown around like confetti with not an iota of evidence. “
Want an example of anti-semitism? Just look at GiyusandTrolls703
And yes, claiming that the Jews control everything from gold mines to the british government is anti-semetic.
What I find particularly sad is that every day that goes by, the anti-semetic comments on this board get more numerous, and the commenters get more bold, and the Guardian seems pretty content just letting it fester.
18 Nov 2009, 4:07PMWhere is my comment? Why has it been removed? I’m sorry I criticised your precious newspaper editor and said I have seen a lot of anti semitic comments on this website. (as well as intelligent posts critising some of Israels policies).
Why can’t we see how much hatred is wipped up by your correspondents?
18 Nov 2009, 4:09
People who deny the existence of Palestine are history twisters along with Holocaust-deniers and other evasive criminals.Just like those who deny the existence of Kurdistan
Let me end this by leaving you with some thoughts from wordsareimportant.
17 Nov 2009, 4:25PMShermanator and MindTheCrap
After last night’s Channel 4 Documentary, I’m just tired of shouting. There is no point in arguing or discussing. The posts go off topic so quickly and back to anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism at its core.
I am really scared that in ten years, 200,000 Jews will HAVE to make aliyah.
I really don’t know what they win but keep up the good work on other CiF posts. I’m off. Bye.
Oh and I’m waiting with bated breath for Cesarani’s follow up piece on the comments in this thread.